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	<title>Comments on: Lymond re-reads and the writer as Dunnett fan</title>
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	<description>Thoughts about the best historical fiction ever written</description>
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		<title>By: Myrrha Stanford-Smith</title>
		<link>http://www.dorothydunnett.co.uk/blog/book-discussion/lymond-re-reads-and-the-writer-as-dunnett-fan.php/comment-page-1/#comment-18211</link>
		<dc:creator>Myrrha Stanford-Smith</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 08 Aug 2009 14:16:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dorothydunnett.co.uk/blog/?p=53#comment-18211</guid>
		<description>As long-time dedicated lover of DD,and a recently accepted author of an historical 16th-17th century series, The Great Lie, I heartily sympathiese over time-line difficulties. I think it is hard for today&#039;s readers to accept what a young man of immense ability could cram into what is inevitably to us a short life, starting very young. Lymond can do extraordinary things for a man of his years and DD makes us believe it without question, with the pace of the action and the fascination of the man. Adult life began so much earlier in those times, fortunately for those of us who are attempting to write about it - we can only hope that our readers will suspend disbelief long enough to fall in love with our desperately young hero as we do with Lymond. With Nicholas, we grow up with him and his dense and elusive character, we have only to believe in his innate genius. I salute DD, the supreme wordsmith, for her refusal to dilute her wonderful prose for any consideration.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>As long-time dedicated lover of DD,and a recently accepted author of an historical 16th-17th century series, The Great Lie, I heartily sympathiese over time-line difficulties. I think it is hard for today&#8217;s readers to accept what a young man of immense ability could cram into what is inevitably to us a short life, starting very young. Lymond can do extraordinary things for a man of his years and DD makes us believe it without question, with the pace of the action and the fascination of the man. Adult life began so much earlier in those times, fortunately for those of us who are attempting to write about it &#8211; we can only hope that our readers will suspend disbelief long enough to fall in love with our desperately young hero as we do with Lymond. With Nicholas, we grow up with him and his dense and elusive character, we have only to believe in his innate genius. I salute DD, the supreme wordsmith, for her refusal to dilute her wonderful prose for any consideration.</p>
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		<title>By: bill</title>
		<link>http://www.dorothydunnett.co.uk/blog/book-discussion/lymond-re-reads-and-the-writer-as-dunnett-fan.php/comment-page-1/#comment-6659</link>
		<dc:creator>bill</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 24 Apr 2007 20:36:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dorothydunnett.co.uk/blog/?p=53#comment-6659</guid>
		<description>Hi Alexis, welcome.

Regarding the (fictional) Culter motto: Volume 1 of The Companion gives it as being ambiguous and meaning either

&quot;Despite the (misleading) evidence of ours lives, we die honest&quot;
or  
&quot;We die honest, despite Life&#039;s efforts to thwart us&quot;. 

Some people have questioned whether this can be correct as a literal translation but it certainly captures the sense of what Dorothy intended, playing with words and ideas as always.

On the question of paintings, Archie was the only character that she ever painted. It was done as a commission for a reader in Canada who simply asked that she paint one of the characters and left the choice to her. Unfortunately he died before it was finished and so it remained in Dorothy&#039;s house, displayed on the main staircase for many years.

The &quot;backstory&quot; of the Chronicles has often been discussed in the online groups and I think it&#039;s fair to say that most people accept that there are a number of little holes in it as regards the timeline. Some of the timings seem to have become compressed at some time and there is a suspicion that perhaps Lymond&#039;s age was changed slightly during the planning stage of the book. Further study of the archive may show us more about this as there are some early drafts containing ideas that were clearly dropped later, but before publication. Whether some changes were made at the editing stage is also a possibility.

We have to remember that this was Dorothy&#039;s first book and was an astonishing achievement compared to the stories common at the time - we are accustomed to &quot;sagas&quot; now but then most books were much shorter and far less complex.  While the later books were absolutely meticulous in their construction there is some understandable looseness in Game of Kings - the surprising thing is that there aren&#039;t more problems and that she was able to write the Niccolos as a prequel without the whole thing falling apart.

However I think we can absolve her of most of this on the university elements, as it was common for young nobles to attend at a much younger age than is the case now. By 16 they were expected to have completed their education and be taking a full part in adult life. Whether at court or in battle. I can imagine Lymond being looked after as an early teenager by Martine&#039;s girls in Paris.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi Alexis, welcome.</p>
<p>Regarding the (fictional) Culter motto: Volume 1 of The Companion gives it as being ambiguous and meaning either</p>
<p>&#8220;Despite the (misleading) evidence of ours lives, we die honest&#8221;<br />
or<br />
&#8220;We die honest, despite Life&#8217;s efforts to thwart us&#8221;. </p>
<p>Some people have questioned whether this can be correct as a literal translation but it certainly captures the sense of what Dorothy intended, playing with words and ideas as always.</p>
<p>On the question of paintings, Archie was the only character that she ever painted. It was done as a commission for a reader in Canada who simply asked that she paint one of the characters and left the choice to her. Unfortunately he died before it was finished and so it remained in Dorothy&#8217;s house, displayed on the main staircase for many years.</p>
<p>The &#8220;backstory&#8221; of the Chronicles has often been discussed in the online groups and I think it&#8217;s fair to say that most people accept that there are a number of little holes in it as regards the timeline. Some of the timings seem to have become compressed at some time and there is a suspicion that perhaps Lymond&#8217;s age was changed slightly during the planning stage of the book. Further study of the archive may show us more about this as there are some early drafts containing ideas that were clearly dropped later, but before publication. Whether some changes were made at the editing stage is also a possibility.</p>
<p>We have to remember that this was Dorothy&#8217;s first book and was an astonishing achievement compared to the stories common at the time &#8211; we are accustomed to &#8220;sagas&#8221; now but then most books were much shorter and far less complex.  While the later books were absolutely meticulous in their construction there is some understandable looseness in Game of Kings &#8211; the surprising thing is that there aren&#8217;t more problems and that she was able to write the Niccolos as a prequel without the whole thing falling apart.</p>
<p>However I think we can absolve her of most of this on the university elements, as it was common for young nobles to attend at a much younger age than is the case now. By 16 they were expected to have completed their education and be taking a full part in adult life. Whether at court or in battle. I can imagine Lymond being looked after as an early teenager by Martine&#8217;s girls in Paris.</p>
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		<title>By: alexis13</title>
		<link>http://www.dorothydunnett.co.uk/blog/book-discussion/lymond-re-reads-and-the-writer-as-dunnett-fan.php/comment-page-1/#comment-6330</link>
		<dc:creator>alexis13</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 24 Apr 2007 03:10:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dorothydunnett.co.uk/blog/?p=53#comment-6330</guid>
		<description>Other questions.  On another site I saw that Mrs. Dunnett painted a picture of Archy Abernathy.  Did she ever paint pictures of any of the other characters particularly Lymond or Phillipa.  I saw a painting of Niccolo on the cover of one of the hardback books, did she paint that picture? 
Can you post the pictures she did paint?  Thanks</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Other questions.  On another site I saw that Mrs. Dunnett painted a picture of Archy Abernathy.  Did she ever paint pictures of any of the other characters particularly Lymond or Phillipa.  I saw a painting of Niccolo on the cover of one of the hardback books, did she paint that picture?<br />
Can you post the pictures she did paint?  Thanks</p>
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		<title>By: alexis13</title>
		<link>http://www.dorothydunnett.co.uk/blog/book-discussion/lymond-re-reads-and-the-writer-as-dunnett-fan.php/comment-page-1/#comment-6328</link>
		<dc:creator>alexis13</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 24 Apr 2007 03:07:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dorothydunnett.co.uk/blog/?p=53#comment-6328</guid>
		<description>I have read and reread both the Lymond and Niccolo series, and recommended them to any friend who loves the English language, as Mrs. Dunnett is a master. However,  I wonder if the Culter motto has been translated. In my version of  Game of Kings it reads Contra Vitam Recti Moriemus,  and on a post card  its shown as Conta Vita Recti Moriamus.  I get the  Contra Vita or &quot;Against 
Life&quot; but no on line translator has been able to do the Recti Moriemus, 
so it must be either an archaic form ( a non sequitor with Latin)  or  
I&#039;m having some other problem.
 I also have some questions I&#039;ve not been able to find the answer too. There is a problem with time lines in Game of Kings, and 
later in Checkmate that I have not been able to figure out.  In GK, 
several times, Francis states he was two years or two summers in the 
galleys.  But when he does his explanation at his trial of where he had 
been, it doesn&#039;t appear he could have spent more than one summer in the 
galleys.  We learn in Checkmate that he was born Nov 1, 1526.  Solway 
Moss was Nov 24, 1542, ie he had just turned 16.   Francis states he was 
taken to London with the prisoners after Solway Moss. ie probably got 
there in December 1542.  Then the allegations, which he confirms, state he 
was given a manor house but subsequently sent to Calais where he was 
captured by the French ie at the earliest in Dec 1542 but probably in 
early 1543. Now on page 503 of my book, the Advocate says &quot;In 1544, 
prior to the Earl&#039;s defection to England, the Master of Culter had been 
on the friendliest terms with him, had stayed with him at Dumbarton and 
thus shared, it was alleged, in his treason. Lymond states &quot;In 1542 I 
became a prisoner of France, and from then until 1544 I was employed on 
travaux forces in the French galleys. In March 1543, I rowed (Lennox) 
from France to Scotland...In Sept of that year ( ie 1543) I was also on 
the galley which conveyed gold and arms from France.... I escaped and 
applied for protection to Lennox who I had reason to believe was 
preparing to defect from (Scotland) ( which he did in May 
1544)....Between those dates I stayed with him as secretary ...leaving 
rather suddenly with a good deal of information and gold...

So he first met Lennox on the galley in March 1543, then again in Sept. 
1543, ie one summer in the galleys.  He states he then escaped to Lennox 
who fled Scotland in May 1544.Francis seems to be indicating that he 
escaped around Sept of 1543, but the latest he possibly  could have 
escaped is before Lennox fled to London in May 1544.   So if he joined 
him before he defected, as  he  says, he could only have been in the 
galleys from at the earliest Dec 1542 until at the latest sometime in 
the Spring of 1544, ie one summer and at most, 17 months.  His statement 
&quot;Between those dates I stayed with him as  secretary&quot; really indicates 
he escaped in Sept 1543 when he was still only 16 and had only been in 
the galleys for 9-10 months. Though he also said he was in the galleys 
until 1544, so I suppose he could have escaped in Jan or Feb of 1544 to 
spend 3-4 months with Lennox. But in either case there is no way he 
could have been two summers or two years in the galleys.

This also seems to be reinforced somewhat by Francis&#039; earlier statement 
to Richard as he was recovering outside Hexham  that he came home to 
Culter in &#039;44 from Dumbarton, ie from Lennox., though it doesn&#039;t give us 
any seasonal reference. From the &quot;between those dates&quot; statement, it 
seems clear that by May 1544, when Lennox fled to London, Francis did 
not go with  him but had already been working for him for some and was 
no longer a rower in the French Kings galleys.

Then one of the  other puzzling  things that comes up in Checkmate is 
that  when he and  the Huguenots escape from the meeting in the Latin 
quarter, he takes the women to what seems to be a University contact he 
knew when he went to University in Paris. The man and his son fondly 
recall some of Francis&#039; exploits, ie the glue in the boots, his use of equations to spell out some scatological or sexual innuendo.  But I just don&#039;t see how Francis could have gone to University anywhere given his age and history he gives at his trial.  He was  just 16 when captured.  We know his time in 
the galleys, his time with Lennox.. In GK at his trial he said he fought 
for the English for 4 months in &#039;45&#039;. He says he took the gold he&#039;d 
stolen from Lennox and started a troupe of soldiers, which eventually 
earned money on the continent.  At the first of GK, it says he is just 
coming back from his soldiering.  I think its during Francis&#039; recovery 
after Hexham, that Richard reminisces about his time in Paris at 
University, but Francis doesn&#039;t. At no other time during the 12 years 
Dunnett covers could he have gone to University, so unless he went at 
age 12 or 14, I just don&#039;t see how this fit in his very cram packed life.
I wonder if anyone ever asked Mrs Dunnett these questions.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I have read and reread both the Lymond and Niccolo series, and recommended them to any friend who loves the English language, as Mrs. Dunnett is a master. However,  I wonder if the Culter motto has been translated. In my version of  Game of Kings it reads Contra Vitam Recti Moriemus,  and on a post card  its shown as Conta Vita Recti Moriamus.  I get the  Contra Vita or &#8220;Against<br />
Life&#8221; but no on line translator has been able to do the Recti Moriemus,<br />
so it must be either an archaic form ( a non sequitor with Latin)  or<br />
I&#8217;m having some other problem.<br />
 I also have some questions I&#8217;ve not been able to find the answer too. There is a problem with time lines in Game of Kings, and<br />
later in Checkmate that I have not been able to figure out.  In GK,<br />
several times, Francis states he was two years or two summers in the<br />
galleys.  But when he does his explanation at his trial of where he had<br />
been, it doesn&#8217;t appear he could have spent more than one summer in the<br />
galleys.  We learn in Checkmate that he was born Nov 1, 1526.  Solway<br />
Moss was Nov 24, 1542, ie he had just turned 16.   Francis states he was<br />
taken to London with the prisoners after Solway Moss. ie probably got<br />
there in December 1542.  Then the allegations, which he confirms, state he<br />
was given a manor house but subsequently sent to Calais where he was<br />
captured by the French ie at the earliest in Dec 1542 but probably in<br />
early 1543. Now on page 503 of my book, the Advocate says &#8220;In 1544,<br />
prior to the Earl&#8217;s defection to England, the Master of Culter had been<br />
on the friendliest terms with him, had stayed with him at Dumbarton and<br />
thus shared, it was alleged, in his treason. Lymond states &#8220;In 1542 I<br />
became a prisoner of France, and from then until 1544 I was employed on<br />
travaux forces in the French galleys. In March 1543, I rowed (Lennox)<br />
from France to Scotland&#8230;In Sept of that year ( ie 1543) I was also on<br />
the galley which conveyed gold and arms from France&#8230;. I escaped and<br />
applied for protection to Lennox who I had reason to believe was<br />
preparing to defect from (Scotland) ( which he did in May<br />
1544)&#8230;.Between those dates I stayed with him as secretary &#8230;leaving<br />
rather suddenly with a good deal of information and gold&#8230;</p>
<p>So he first met Lennox on the galley in March 1543, then again in Sept.<br />
1543, ie one summer in the galleys.  He states he then escaped to Lennox<br />
who fled Scotland in May 1544.Francis seems to be indicating that he<br />
escaped around Sept of 1543, but the latest he possibly  could have<br />
escaped is before Lennox fled to London in May 1544.   So if he joined<br />
him before he defected, as  he  says, he could only have been in the<br />
galleys from at the earliest Dec 1542 until at the latest sometime in<br />
the Spring of 1544, ie one summer and at most, 17 months.  His statement<br />
&#8220;Between those dates I stayed with him as  secretary&#8221; really indicates<br />
he escaped in Sept 1543 when he was still only 16 and had only been in<br />
the galleys for 9-10 months. Though he also said he was in the galleys<br />
until 1544, so I suppose he could have escaped in Jan or Feb of 1544 to<br />
spend 3-4 months with Lennox. But in either case there is no way he<br />
could have been two summers or two years in the galleys.</p>
<p>This also seems to be reinforced somewhat by Francis&#8217; earlier statement<br />
to Richard as he was recovering outside Hexham  that he came home to<br />
Culter in &#8217;44 from Dumbarton, ie from Lennox., though it doesn&#8217;t give us<br />
any seasonal reference. From the &#8220;between those dates&#8221; statement, it<br />
seems clear that by May 1544, when Lennox fled to London, Francis did<br />
not go with  him but had already been working for him for some and was<br />
no longer a rower in the French Kings galleys.</p>
<p>Then one of the  other puzzling  things that comes up in Checkmate is<br />
that  when he and  the Huguenots escape from the meeting in the Latin<br />
quarter, he takes the women to what seems to be a University contact he<br />
knew when he went to University in Paris. The man and his son fondly<br />
recall some of Francis&#8217; exploits, ie the glue in the boots, his use of equations to spell out some scatological or sexual innuendo.  But I just don&#8217;t see how Francis could have gone to University anywhere given his age and history he gives at his trial.  He was  just 16 when captured.  We know his time in<br />
the galleys, his time with Lennox.. In GK at his trial he said he fought<br />
for the English for 4 months in &#8217;45&#8242;. He says he took the gold he&#8217;d<br />
stolen from Lennox and started a troupe of soldiers, which eventually<br />
earned money on the continent.  At the first of GK, it says he is just<br />
coming back from his soldiering.  I think its during Francis&#8217; recovery<br />
after Hexham, that Richard reminisces about his time in Paris at<br />
University, but Francis doesn&#8217;t. At no other time during the 12 years<br />
Dunnett covers could he have gone to University, so unless he went at<br />
age 12 or 14, I just don&#8217;t see how this fit in his very cram packed life.<br />
I wonder if anyone ever asked Mrs Dunnett these questions.</p>
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		<title>By: dovegreyreader</title>
		<link>http://www.dorothydunnett.co.uk/blog/book-discussion/lymond-re-reads-and-the-writer-as-dunnett-fan.php/comment-page-1/#comment-16</link>
		<dc:creator>dovegreyreader</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 12 Oct 2006 21:42:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.dorothydunnett.co.uk/blog/?p=53#comment-16</guid>
		<description>Bill I&#039;ve wandered over here from the Transita site and lovely to find a Dunnett blog.I think I probably e mailed you last year when I first started reading DD.Lovely to keep in touch with all things Dunnett through here, I&#039;ll put a link on my blog to remind me to call in and I think a Dunnett post is called for!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Bill I&#8217;ve wandered over here from the Transita site and lovely to find a Dunnett blog.I think I probably e mailed you last year when I first started reading DD.Lovely to keep in touch with all things Dunnett through here, I&#8217;ll put a link on my blog to remind me to call in and I think a Dunnett post is called for!</p>
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